Talking with Alexander Vindman
The fates of the US and Ukraine are now linked in important ways
Alexander Vindman is on a mission. After a decorated military career, Lt. Col Vindman was asked to extend his military strategy work into national strategic policy. He joined the National Security Council work as the director of European Affairs. It was that job that made him witness to the infamous “I need you to us a favor, though,” phone call between President Trump and Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
Col. Vindman reported that call to authorities, and ultimately testified about it during the now disgraced President’s first impeachment hearings. Vindman’s refusal to keep quiet about that call cost him his job. And yet, he continues to serve the country as a civilian still on the to strengthen our country’s position with respect to the autocratic threat from Russian.
Vindman has written a book, Here, Right Matters. We talked this week on my WCPT 820 AM radio show, The Big Picture. The quotes here are edited for clarity. The full conversation is available here.
Here are the parts of the conversation that stood out to me:
On dealing with the Trump Administration and the courage to blow the whistle:
Early in our conversation he reminded me that a moment of extraordinary courage is just the outcome of the daily decisions to work hard and do the right thing. I had suggested that the most important thing he did for the democracy was to blow the whistle on that infamous call.
“I'd like to think,” he corrected me, “that my biggest contribution is actually behind the scenes in 21 and a half years of service to the country. I say that because some of the things that put me in a position to [be part of the foreign policy team] was gaining kind of an expertise of sorts in Russia and Ukraine. That allowed me to serve in the Pentagon and offer the sxxtrategy US military strategy for managing Russia. And then again, join the White House to take that strategy and elevate it to the to the national level so expanded beyond just the military scope. Of course, most of the public knows me for my public appearance in testifying was reporting the President's wrongdoing and then testifying in front of Congress.”
His book, Here Right Matters, is about his journey, the steps he took throughout his career that made his fateful decision to take on a sitting President simply “the right thing to do.” It is unusual to think about a military and foreign policy discussion as a dialog about the benefits of having a moral compass that points to true north, but that is what talking to Col Vindman is like.
“Gordon Sondland,” he told me, “ was trying to navigate the President's personal desires and his network of unofficial activity with the fact that we had a job to do... to support Ukraine. Sondland thought it was an easy thing to orchestrate this quid pro quo because it would get the President off his hang up on Ukraine and Ukraine was a linchpin to our national security. In certain ways he also was acting to avoid where we are today with the thought that you just did it by situational ethics and by sacrificing honor and integrity by being complicit in the quid pro quo, I wasn't going to do that.”
Plus, it does not work. Witnessing President Trump’s shakedown call, Vindman knew he had to act.
“I had to have some concerns about my career, but I wasn't going to put those concerns ahead of my responsibilities. My responsibilities were to, to my country, to my oath as an Army officer. I knew this would introduce a vulnerability for Russia to pursue. And I concerned about the fact that he was trying to steal an election and undo our democracy. And then, of course, all the geopolitical concerns that are now apparent. President Trump bears a great deal of responsibility for where we are today with regards to a major war in Ukraine, a war that has every possibility of dragging in the United States-- his cheerleading for Vladimir Putin his undermining the relationship with Ukraine at a time when Putin was looking for any excuse to try to steal Ukraine back into his orbit. And he did this all the way through to the hours right before the war.”
I suggested while Putin was using Trump, Trump was lying to Putin, and that may have led to the Russian’s miscalculation. Vindman agreed, saying,
“Think about the mental checklist that Vladimir Putin has. He doesn't have to contend with NATO because NATO is divided. He doesn't have to contend with the US because the US is fractured and half of the political leaders there, the Republican Trumper politicians, are not going to take action. The fact that Trump was demonizing Ukraine and elevating Russia and Putin, these are all kind of critical checkmarks on that mental checklist to make the decision to invade. Trump and folks like Ron Johnson, Mike Pompeo, Tucker Carlson-- they're all complicit. They have blood on their hands.”
On the proper path forward to protect Ukraine and avoid an expansion of hostilities:
I asked what's the best set of arms to provide in order to meet the twin objectives of preventing expansion of the war, but to provide Ukraine with sufficient defensive capabilities.
“We're trying to avoid this war from spilling over and dragging NATO and the US directly into it. I think all the conditions are set for that kind of expansion. It's the largest country in the world attacking the largest country in Europe. Just conceptualize that on a map. It kind of puts the scale in perspective. The actions that we take, that some people might argue are provocative, they're intended to deter a broader war. Our decisions are risk informed. In that light, we think about the kinds of systems that would really help the Ukrainians without being overly provocative. Things like providing or facilitating the transfer of Soviet era aircraft, like MIG 29. That should be a pretty low bar. More fingers, more Javelin anti tank systems.
“The biggest mismatch between the Ukrainian and the Russian army is Russia's long range fires. They have a lot more planes that have a lot more helicopters. They have more cruise missiles, and they have more ships and ballistic missiles. So if we were to arm the Ukrainians with drones that could be operated for laptop and have long range capabilities then the can Ukrainians knock out these short range ballistic missile systems that have been raining fire on Ukrainian cities and causing enormous civilian damage.”
I suggested that our future and Ukraine's future have become intertwined. I told him that I was worried that if Ukraine falls there will be recriminations here, and our democracy will enter even that darker time than it is in now. He agreed.
“I think that's right. I think that's exactly the right way to look at it. And frankly, this is one of the reasons that I thought our support for NATO was so critical, because I've considered Ukraine, the frontline of freedom are the ones that are duking it out with the Russians. They're the ones that are almost single handedly preserving the international order that allowed the US to thrive in our NATO allies to thrive since the second end of the Second World War. It's them fighting them spilling their blood, and all we really need to do is provide them with the equipment they need to.
“There was our time three weeks ago where we thought everything was lost, that Ukraine was going to get crushed Russia was going to be a more of a threat. There was going to be a a domino effect with seizing other countries in around Russia's periphery. That is not the world we live in anymore. We can see a situation in which we help Ukraine come out of this war with its sovereignty intact and Russia on its heels. China on their on their heels also, because they have a lot of introspection to do about their misconceptions about easily rolling over the democratic world.
“The democratic world is united. This is a major turning point. This is going to be one of those things that historians will look back on decades down the road and they'll either see a kind of Renaissance- a revival of democracies or a surge of authoritarianism.
On the Information War:
Col. Vindman worked with Arnold Schwarzenegger on a powerful video that spoke to the Russian people. I asked about that, and how we might better fight the information war. He put my question into context.
“This is the first major war of the 21st century. And this world looks very different than other kinds of wars. The legacy investments into tanks seem to be misplaced now. The ability to kind of knock out and isolate country by taking out its telecommunications that's misplaced. This is the most connected, most televised war that there's ever been. And it's in real time. Russia is trying to keep control over its population through propaganda, trying to justify its actions to the rest of the world. But Zelinsky has used information to gain support. He has used it to get the West to provide the material that Ukraine needs. This is something military planners will study well into the future. Satellite communications, Elon Musk Musk’s Starlink has been pretty interesting and critical, because it's allowed, even if telecom get knocked out, people to have internet access.
“Russia is still stuck in the past. It's not agile and learning. Certainly not on the battlefield. It's on Russia's on its heels with regards to information space. There is no headway Russia's making with any kind of propaganda except domestically.”
I suggested that many Americans have been victimized by the powerful propaganda efforts that you see on Fox News and that get propagated through Facebook, and asked how do we deprogram delusional Americans.
“It's this idea of don't believe your lying eyes, right. Or in this case, in this case, Fox News. But even Fox News which believed that you could shape the minds of the American public had to bend to a public that was watching this devastation unfold in real time on Ukraine . Americans rejected the narrative of Russia being the good guy. That shows the limitations. I think there is something fundamental about humans, and for now also American values, that help us all rally around Ukraine. I think that there's something to be to learn out of this experience.”